"You have to listen to the decision makers, meet with the decision makers, and pitch your ask in such a way that it's possible for them to take up your suggestions." 

That's the message from international advocacy and diplomacy expert Susan Brown, who will shortly take up the post of UNDP Assistant Administrator, and Director of its External Affairs and Advocacy Bureau.

Susan kindly agreed to be interviewed for the first episode https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/track-changes/id1773158403 of Earthed’s Track Changes podcast series and she shared some great insights, giving her personal reflections on how sustainability negotiations are evolving, and how to have a positive impact on them.

The interview isn't about specific negotiating texts. It's about changes in the mindset and attitudes of negotiators. It's not about the COP 'blue zones' or 'green zones', it's about why we all need to get out of our comfort zones. 

Susan points out that governments are now much more open to drawing ideas and seeking solutions from a wide range of sources. 

There is also “much more of a realisation now that economics, social issues and environmental issues are very deeply related,” she says. 

Susan provides a lot of tips in the interview, highlighting the importance of listening to formal opening statements at UN negotiations for insights into where countries might be flexible as talks get underway, as well as for signs of where they are initially drawing their “red lines”.  

In addition, she emphasises that it’s important not to just hang out with your regular crew at UN negotiating sessions. Nor is it enough just to seek out the countries that you consider are going to play a particularly important role in the negotiations. 

Instead, it’s a time to expand your horizons, Susan says. 

It’s also important to take yourself out of your own set of assumptions, and to try to understand the motivations and viewpoints of others, she says.  

And if you think UN negotiations are pointless, think again. As Susan points out, “words matter, and they have impact on the ground”. 

It was fascinating to talk to Susan, and uplifting to hear her use words like “openness”, “goodwill” and “trust” to characterise international talks, even though she doesn’t downplay the challenges, roadblocks and differences of opinion that can get in the way. 

Tune in to the Track Changes podcast https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/track-changes/id1773158403 for the full interview! Find out why negotiations are like icebergs, and what “square brackets” can really mean! 

You can find out more about Susan Brown here, and discover more about the important work of the UNDP here https://www.undp.org .